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SMLLC - Qualified Joint Venture - CA

Iraheta CPA
Level 2

My client resides in California, and they, along with their spouse, own a Single-Member LLC (SMLLC). For federal tax purposes, they are treated as a Qualified Joint Venture. California is a community property state, and the IRS mandates that each spouse reports their respective share of income and deductions on their own separate Schedule C forms. However, when using Lacerte tax software, it is generating two Form 568s and imposing a $800 minimum franchise tax for each LLC, which is incorrect. Has anyone in California encountered similar issues, and if so, how did they resolve this problem?  At a high level, my primary need is for Lacerte to combine the two Schedule Cs information into one California Form 568.

Thank you in advance!

 

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abctax55
Level 15

My 'cite' is at work (and I'm not...) but I researched this extensively previously and have done the "joint" on S-16 for several clients, for many years.  And zero push back from the IRS.  

Yes, I know that isn't 'authority' (hi Bob).

YMMV.

My initial answer was "how to make Lacerte do it".   Over and out on this one.

"*******Tax software is no substitute for a professional tax preparer*******
( Generic Comment )"

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11 Comments 11
TaxGuyBill
Level 15

If it is a Single Member LLC (with the husband-wife-community as one owner), shouldn't it only be on one Schedule C?  There would be two Schedule SEs, but I think it would only be one Schedule C.

 

abctax55
Level 15

1) Mark the S-16 as joint, which will create two separate Form SE for the self-employment tax.  That should result in just one F 569

2) Create the two separate Sch C's (which can be a royal pain), take the LLC designation down at the bottom of S-16 on one of them, and override the gross receipts amount on the F 568-IW (?) page so that only one is created and only one $ 800 payment is due.

"*******Tax software is no substitute for a professional tax preparer*******
( Generic Comment )"
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Iraheta CPA
Level 2

I appreciate your feedback. I find it unexpected that Lacerte is not able to manage this task seamlessly, given that it's a widely practiced procedure. I transitioned from using Drake tax to Lacerte, and with Drake, I could effortlessly consolidate the two Schedule C entries without any extra steps. 

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Iraheta CPA
Level 2

Because they reside in a community property state, the IRS mandates the use of two Schedule Cs. Below is an excerpt taken directly from the IRS website explaining how to report federal income tax as a Qualified Joint Venture, including self-employment tax:

"When spouses opt for qualified joint venture status, they are considered individual sole proprietors for federal tax purposes. The spouses are required to divide the business's income, gains, losses, deductions, and credits in accordance with their respective interests in the business. This same division applies when calculating self-employment tax, if applicable, and may have implications for each spouse's social security benefits. Each spouse must file a separate Schedule C (or Schedule F) to report their individual profits and losses. If necessary, they should also file a separate Schedule SE to report their self-employment tax. Spouses engaged in a rental real estate business not otherwise subject to self-employment tax should mark the QJV box on Line 2 of Schedule E.

 

Election for Married Couples Unincorporated Businesses | Internal Revenue Service (irs.gov)

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TaxGuyBill
Level 15

@Iraheta CPA wrote:

Because they reside in a community property state,

the IRS mandates the use of two Schedule Cs. Below is an excerpt taken directly from the IRS website explaining how to report federal income tax as a Qualified Joint Venture,


 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the rules, but I disagree.  Unfortunately, I can't find the citation I'm looking for.

The way I understand it, you are talking about two different things. 

The LLC in a Community Property State makes it a "Disregarded Entity", not a Qualified Joint Venture.  In your case, it is even a SINGLE Member LLC.  The treatment is almost the same, but not quite.

Again, I can't find the citation that I'm looking for, but from my understanding the LLC in a Community Property State files ONE Schedule C (because it is not technically a QJV), but files two Schedule SEs.

 

Iraheta CPA
Level 2

Indeed, tax regulations can be quite intricate and occasionally appear to be self-contradictory. It's possible that I may have misconstrued it, but after extensive reading and research, it seems that in community property states, individuals might be required to file two schedule Cs. I came across an article in The Tax Adviser that further delves into this topic.  The article explains that if joint venture status is elected, each spouse files a Schedule C, Profit or Loss From Business, Schedule E, Supplemental Income and Loss, or Schedule F, Profit or Loss From Farming, as appropriate, to report his or her share of the items of income, gain, loss, and deduction.  

I may very well be misunderstanding the article and the rules, which is why I want to see what other tax practitioners in CA or any other community property states are doing.  I would like to file just one Sch C.  It makes it much easier for me.

 

LLC owned solely by spouses: A partnership or a joint venture? (thetaxadviser.com)

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sjrcpa
Level 15

I agree with you Bill.

I also don't have the cite.


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Iraheta CPA
Level 2

I appreciate everyone's input, and I've come to realize that I had been mistakenly equating Qualified Joint Ventures with Disregarded entities. Upon conducting more in-depth research, I've discerned that these are distinct tax classifications, differing only in how they handle the reporting of income and expenses on tax returns. Here's a brief overview of my findings after delving further into the subject.

An LLC (Limited Liability Company) owned by both a husband and wife as members can be treated as a Qualified Joint Venture (QJV) or a Disregarded Entity for tax purposes. The main difference between the two lies in how the income is reported and whether each spouse is treated as self-employed for Social Security and Medicare tax purposes.

1. Qualified Joint Venture (QJV):

In the context of married couples who jointly own and operate an LLC, the QJV election allows each spouse to be treated as a separate sole proprietor for tax purposes. This means that they can both report their share of the LLC's income and expenses on separate Schedule C forms attached to their individual tax returns. Here are some key points about QJVs:

- Each spouse reports their respective share of the LLC's income and expenses on their individual tax returns.

- This allows for separate self-employment tax calculations, with each spouse responsible for their own Social Security and Medicare taxes.

- The QJV election is available for a married couple in community property states or in non-community property states. It's not available for single-member LLCs or multiple-member LLCs.

2. Disregarded Entity:

By default, a multi-member LLC (an LLC with more than one owner) is classified as a partnership for tax purposes. However, a multi-member LLC owned by a husband and wife can elect to be treated as a disregarded entity for federal tax purposes. In this case, the LLC is not treated as a separate entity for tax purposes, and the income and expenses of the LLC are reported on the couple's joint tax return. Here are some key points about disregarded entities:

- The LLC is not treated as a separate taxpayer; instead, it's "disregarded," and the couple reports the income and expenses on their joint tax return.

- The income from the LLC is reported on the couple's joint Schedule C, and the net income is subject to self-employment tax, which is calculated based on their combined earnings.

- This election is typically available for husband and wife LLC owners in community property states. In non-community property states, they may need to consult their respective state to determine their options.

In summary, the primary difference between a Qualified Joint Venture and a Disregarded Entity for an LLC owned by a husband and wife is in how the income is reported and how self-employment taxes are calculated. The choice between these options depends on the couple's specific circumstances, such as their state of residence and their tax preferences.

abctax55
Level 15

My 'cite' is at work (and I'm not...) but I researched this extensively previously and have done the "joint" on S-16 for several clients, for many years.  And zero push back from the IRS.  

Yes, I know that isn't 'authority' (hi Bob).

YMMV.

My initial answer was "how to make Lacerte do it".   Over and out on this one.

"*******Tax software is no substitute for a professional tax preparer*******
( Generic Comment )"
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Iraheta CPA
Level 2

Thank you for your feedback!  I went ahead and combined it into one Schedule C.

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sjrcpa
Level 15

I resemble that author.😍


Ex-AllStar
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