My clients are requesting FILLABLE organizers. Can you make this happen so we can stop with the paper organizers? The e-organizer is not something most of my clients can work with so a fillable PDF would be great.
Thank you for your feedback and votes. We understand this is an opportunity not only for Lacerte but for many accountants using Intuit products. This idea continues to be Under Review as the team is researching options for a holistic approach on this topic.
Please continue to share your feedback as we develop and scope next steps for bringing this enhancement to life.
I agree. I ran all of my orgs through Foxit to make them fillable. It seems like that could be part of the organizer print process. This is a long overdue need for our clients. It makes tax preparers look like they use old technology. It's not good for us and if users think the software is old school, they may not trust the security either.
I agree strongly. The E-Organizers are a disaster, and the fact they are sent out as an .EXE file makes users hesitant to open them. Most computers block this type of file from opening, so they then have to 'authorize' a 'potentially dangerous' file on their computers. Oh, and you cant use it if you're on a Mac.
Fillable PDFs would make everything so much easier. Been asking for this for years.
I agree on the e-organizers JL207! Clients are afraid to open them (lots of big warnings!) and of course if your client has a MAC they don't work at all. I have also found with the e-organizers that I spend just as much time as I would if I entered the information myself. They don't really add value for me as I am triple checking what the uninformed client has done. The only reason I offered them up as an option this year was to let my clients know I am up to date with technology. But I feel with the varying skill level of my clients a FILLABLE PDF would check all the boxes.
Yes, this would be very helpful! I think Intuit Link is a good solution for many clients, but not all. Having a fillable PDF organizer that autosaves in the cloud would be the way to go! Thank you for considering.
Agree 100%...I'm currently using Intuit Practice Management with Karbon and am liking it a lot so far for workflow. However I've not been impressed with Intuit Link. There's other software like TaxDome that has "digital organizers" but they don't include tax return data which has made me reluctant to use that. Hence a better solution using PDF could be a great solution.
Add my vote. Fillable PDF would be much better than the electronic organizer.
I can't send the electronic organizer because of the reasons previously listed by others, including; requiring launching an executable file, tedious and archaic looking, too much work for client (why hire us, then?), etc.
Agreed! I switched from Lacerte to Pro Tax Connect and then switched back to Lacerte for the tax planner and organizer functions. A fillable organizer would make everyone's day!!!
I cannot agree more, the tax organizer,( not the e-file organizer which does NOT resemble the "paper organizer" and is clunky ) needs to be a fillable PDF document that will add tremendous value in time savings for both clients and we as preparers. The technology is there and Lacerte needs to step up their game on this most important part of the workflow process.
on 02-09-202104:44 PM - last edited on 12-19-202309:38 PM by IntuitGabi
on 02-09-202104:44 PM - last edited on 12-19-202309:38 PM by IntuitGabi
My office was looking for the same thing, and for several years we would generate the organizers as PDFs and put the custom pages up front. Essentially this just moved our printing costs down one step to the client, in the same manner that the IRS moved their data input (from paper returns) out to the preparers, with e-filing.
A few years ago, though, a complete wizard with Adobe found a way to identify the pages--of the "complete" organizer only; NOT the "condensed", and also NOT the Fiduciary since those pages are laid out similarly to the Individual condensed--in the file and overlay them with fillable fields.
Since then, we have been sending out fillable organizers every year.
All of the pages for the 2020 input sheets have now been updated--several states added ID PIN fields to page2/Dependents, and the issue with the year being duplicated one sheet has been resolved in recent Lacerte updates--and so this year's version is now available:
[removed]
Note again that this simply lays fillable fields over the PDF pages generated from Lacerte (with the "complete" organizer only). Primarily this is useful for legibility--rather than reading each client's different chicken-scratch handwriting--as well as Find, Zooming size, and copy/paste for long entries.
This WILL NOT take data from the Organizer and populate it into the Lacerte program. (Though I do have some ideas towards that.)
And again, this works ONLY for the INDividual module. (The page headers for the FIDuciary module are laid out differently, so they will take additional work... and no other module even generates an Organizer.) You MUST have the full ("Pro") version of Adobe Acrobat, NOT just the "Reader" version.
Just got a message from a 3rd party product that generates the fillable organizer. Nice enough and reasonable but I think the point here is that we should be able to generate a fillable organizer from our software to print directly to our doc mgt system. Better yet to email directly to the client from the software - what a timesaver that would be. This should include any questionnaires in the organizer. This year I gave up on Lacerte's and created my own that I will update each year. I thought Lacerte would take a stab at adding some new questions based on the tax law changes but I was wrong. Some might be using the AICPA version already. Lacerte's are very difficult to format and hard for clients to read if you reduce the font to make the page count reasonable. You are also limited to Y/N questions. God forbid that you need to correct an error by backspacing 1 space as the software tabs back and you may take out a whole phrase. Anything that I have to use outside of the tax product is a huge blow to efficiency and productivity not to mention that I have to send things manually. All so my clients think that I am legit and not using some hack software. This is truly an area that could be vastly improved. Obviously, many think the same since this has jumped to the number one enhancement idea. Nice Terri!
I agree a fillable PDF organizer would be a welcome addition. The intuit link is better than e-organizer for my clients, having an organizer that looks like the paper version would be best!
I also would love to be able to import a word document as an engagement letter and actually not have to work on the formatting to get this to print correctly in Lacerte software.
If we could send for e-signature with the fillable PDF organizer you would get an A++ rating from many of your users- including me.
I have used Lacerte for more than 20 years- most of my clients have been with me that long, we would all welcome change if the face looks the same.
Tax organizer (not questionnaire) omits any fields for advance payments received (stimulus checks). Default questionnaire has one question, which is general and useless. Tech support informed me that organizers will NOT be updated since the October 2020 version. Organizer team is MIA. It's not only ugly in format, but it's hard to see fields and fill out.
Never mind that it's terribly outdated and not fillable.
Questionnaire is ridiculous. USELESS for gathering information for tax prep unless coupled by sit down interviews or endless follow ups. We cannot compete with enforced old technology when some clients have defected to on-line solutions. Custom questionnaire is unworkable. Seems like an appeasement to higher-end Lacerte users, but it does not offer same features for write in commentary by clients.
Every year Lacerte seems to get worse, and to make up for it, they increase their price. Worse client interface and higher prices. YAY. GO LACERTE!
Tom5, we customize our questionnaire quite a bit, including stimulus payment questions and PPP this year.
We then print out ONE copy of it to PDF, put the fields on it a single time ourselves, and then marry that finished version back into the PDF versions of the organizers that get sent out to clients.
It is comparatively easy to do; the time consuming part is lining up all of the yes/no boxes for each question.
There are more people than i thought who have the same observations. If we listen to the tech support guys, they tell me (presumably with an honest fact) that i'm the only one they've talked to with the same concerns amongst the 45,000 other Laerte firms. Every one a perfect liar, even after i point out i'm one of 45,000 firms. 45,000 firms means more than 100,000 users, with probably over half million tax returns, and I'M THE ONLY ONE?
Heartening to hear from you and the others who have posted their similar experiences and frustrations, all to no avail. Particularly glad to hear from some high-end users. .I've seen endless other Lacerte preparers' tax returns here who don't even enter the client's name in the cover letter. Shameless morons. I heard the most frequent tech support call is when Lacerte users call about not being able to open the program. Turns out the capslock key is engaged.
There's no option by defecting to Drake. It's beyond worse. It's impossible. Stuck with Lacerte, and Intuit knows it. Mediocrity prevails. No wonder the public regards our work as a commodity. We've all trained them to think that way, especially when we have mediocre tools like Lacerte which dominates our profession.
in addition to the yes/no questions, we also need a text field where the clients can enter notes or commentary on selected questions where explanations would be useful. Then, perhaps, at the end, a text field where we can allow a catch-all place for general or other commentary not otherwise available elsewhere on the questionnaire. My 2 cents.
Agreed. It needs to be simple like condensed organizer that we can modify questionairre. If my clients had to fill in your existing e-organizer, they would say they will just do their own on turbo tax. Hmmmm
Yes, a client of mine a few years ago made the same comment about TurboTax. They are now a former client, to my complete satisfaction. If that's what they think of you, then perhaps this may be a wakeup call for the type of clients you serve in your practice.
That is, if all they think of you is a more convenient form of software program, you're not adding any perceived value to the relationship.
By the way, if they don't want to answer your questions, what do you do for lack of data? Make up the answers yourself? Or, ignore the unresolved issue? Does your engagement letter cover these conditions where clients refuse to cooperate with giving you the data you need?
CAMICO (in California) says that you if you impose your decision on the client's tax return, you own the consequences. You're responsible for the outcome. Like, for example, adopting an election that they are clueless about, until later, when it bites them in the rear. Then, you're calling your insurance carrier and saying hello to sleepless nights.
It's our role to advise and inform. It's the client's sole responsibility to make the decisions. You have to document everything, with dates and times.
This is my 46th year in tax practice, and i'm liking this profession less and less. Especially with Lacerte dropping the ball so frequently now a days. So, we have to make up for Lacerte's shortfalls who impose upon us these ridiculous questionnaires and worse organizers, plus all the IRS BS we're now responsible for covering, or expose ourselves to more litigation exposure and IRS sanctions.
There's no nobility in subjecting yourself to these abuses that low life clients demand you endure. Check your self-esteem level. Maybe you're involved somewhat in how clients feel they can treat you.
Send them the questionnaire you need to, and forget the low life's that make your life miserable. Chances are, they don't deserve you anyway. And, if you lose a few clients, that's OK. Raise your prices on the remaining ones and work less for more money.
Absolutely, please please make this happen. I get clients asking for this all the time every year. Intuit Link begins to approach this and clients like answering the questionnaire via intuit link.
I agree that fillable pdf organizers is what my clients want. I do not know why Lacerte's programmers can't make this a priority. The e-organizers are a disaster.
Let's not lose sight of the fact that pen and paper, as old technology, still offers the best flexibility possible because clients can write notes or comments in the margins and between lines to better explain items which have nuances that "yes" or "no" answers cannot capture.
I have been running a no-interview practice for 20+ years, and find that my clients use the pen and paper to augment the questionnaire, give perspective and offer incidental information that is usually helpful
If we digitize the questionnaire portion, my warning is to include plenty of unrestricted text fields where clients can annotate the organizer with their thoughts, not just a blank page at the end of the organizer.
Sometimes email just doesn't cut it. You have to pick up the phone and actually talk to someone. The same is applicable to electronic organizers. Sometimes the old tech just works better. So, when converting the paper organizer to digital, let's keep in mind we're trying to replicate the pen and paper, not abridge it's usefulness by digital shortcuts. That is, your practice is anything other than a tax mill or humanized version of Turbotax.
on 03-24-202109:42 AM - last edited on 12-19-202309:43 PM by IntuitGabi
on 03-24-202109:42 AM - last edited on 12-19-202309:43 PM by IntuitGabi
Since I keep seeing new responses on this thread--and someone who was *not* involved with creating the utility separately posted a link to it--I thought folks might be interested in seeing what a finished product looks like once all of the pages have had fields laid on them.
This link is to a [no password] copy of the file that my office uses for new clients this year; anyone who has information from last year's return obviously gets their specific pages. (Like the fellow who has forty [40] page18/rental properties...)
The questionnaires in the Intuit Link are impossible to print out for our records so I have to snip and paste. Even in the Intuit Link a pdf fillable questioinaire to complete that we can print to DMS or to our portals and/or to paper would be so helfpul for clients and for the tax preparers. I am wondering if there is some program to make the Lacerte tax organizers fillable when the pdf is opened and to be able to save it?
I have been requesting this for at least 10 years.
Also, the "Intuit Link" questionnaire is only viewable and downloadable as a .csv file. When opening this in Excel and expanding the columns to see what the clients are answering it becomes UNMANAGABLE no matter what is done. On top of that the default font is almost unreadable. How about a pdf or word doc that is formatted similar to the organizer (that , after all is what this is replacing) and usefull to a tax preparer.
slshapiro, It cost me so much time to use the Snip it took to print the pages so I can scan them into my DMS. They should have the file as a manageable pdf and printable the answers. I do not like the Intuit Link for this reason and I am thinking of suppressing the questionnaire and downloading the tax organizer and asking my clients to just let me know which questions have a Yes answer. We pay enough that this easy request should be honored!
@laccpaand others, it IS old technology. No "like" about it.
@JL207, @CPATerri, I think the E-Organizer is broken. Was unable to import my test. Even worse it installs files on the clients computer in the C:\ so someone not knowing might think this to be malware (kind of is).
We have been generating our own Questionnaires for some time as we also have text fields that users can enter into (custom fields). The year we tried an MS Excel spreadsheet so it could be electronically filled, total disaster. Too many people saved it in Google Docs, MAC, Open Office, etc, and we had issues getting it back. Don't use Word either, same issue.
We also historically included an engagement letter, invoice and ask to confirm bank data when we posted the Organizer package. This year we had to pull the bank data and sent it as an additional element to initial in our E-Signatures package. We would like to send the organizer via E-Signature\Docusign.
Does Intuit really care if clients defect to another Intuit product? Probably not.
I am so frustrated with the e-organizer and it's inability to open and work with Mac or Apple. I also agree I have had many PC users that just can't seem to open it. The firewalls bring up a message that says your computer may implode if you continue with this process. This is not helpful or encouraging to clients. For all the money we pay for this tax software our lives should be made more convenient and not create more work.
If Lacerte ever gets its act together and implements this feature, i'd suggest that it also includes the option to add comments by clients, much like they would if they were filling out a paper organizer, such as writing in between questions or on the margins. There's no point in computerizing a form if it doesn't functionally operate identically to the manual counterpart. That would be going backwards, which is what Lacerte has been prone to do many times in its "enhancements."
Tom5, we include the "Notes" page (last one on the include/suppress box) in all of our organizers. Setting this as a multi-line word-wrap text field in the PDF version we use is easy.
Any client who calls in and says "I ran out of space" we tell them to either forward the rest of their questions with their documents--if they are snail-mailing their W-2s and other items--or else just email them to us.
@IntuitBettyJoHello Betty Jo!! Can you please comment for the posters and 197 eager supporters.
We are more and more being pushed to digital operations. Few clients have the ability to scan a completed paper organizer and we end up with hard to read paper.
I would love to get some feedback on my initial post and whether there are plans to implement this fillable PDF feature into the 2021 organizer options. Intuit? This seems like a popular topic.
We need an easy way to email our clients fillable PDF's.
We appreciate everyone's massive support on this idea. We have passed this idea along to our development team and they are interested and reviewing it. We will update you as soon as we get more information.
@IntuitBettyJo any update? Organizer season is coming in hot and I'd love to be able to send my clients fillable PDFs this year and cut down on my paper waste.
It is a real concern that Intuit bases its professional tax software development decisions on polls and popularity contests rather than knowing how to do it right in first place. I have used Lacerte for 30 years and the tax organizer has never changed one bit. Is it true that only the loudest voices matter at Intuit such that as late as 2022 (or 23) we have a feature that the company should have offered ten years earlier? Or is Intuit just being lazy?
By its actions over the last 30 years since i've been a customer, Lacerte has always been about caving in to mediocrity, not pursing excellence, so as not to upset the majority of customers who are, themselves, mediocre by nature. It's a sad commentary that many tax preparers whose returns i've seen don't even use the client letter, much less enter the client's name as the salutation. Countless times, i've seen letters headed up, "Dear Client." Some don't even use the filing instructions. With a majority of these people who use Lacerte, excellence is an unwelcome annoyance, so all of us become stuck with a product that produces a mediocre result. It's intentionally designed that way. Rather than innovate, the company seeks to have its customers even more reliant on its software by invading the work flow, so they will essentially own your tax practice for life. Unfortunately, the whole industry is generally geared toward pleasing the majority who fall under the center of the bell curve, which is not where excellence lives. The other alternatives are much worse.
I also would like to know if Lacerte will be offering the fillable tax organizers this year. The Intuit Link is not the friendly to use and does not show the amounts from the prior tax year. I do not like the e-organizers.
Hey Lacerte @IntuitBettyJo , I made this suggestion back in on Feb. 9, 2021, I see the organizer program for 2021 is out, but no option for fillable PDF. Please correct me if I am wrong on this.
How many years can we make this request and still be ignored? It's very frustrating to not be heard on something that seems so easy to fix. The E Organizer and Intuit Link are simply not adequate. A client can really foul up a return by putting stray information or making changes without our knowledge. Get rid of these and focus on a fillable PDF!
Well, it looks like they passed it on to the development team, who evidently passed it on to the interested team and reviewing it team. Once those teams are done doing their jobs, you are probably only another 63 teams away from making it a reality. 😬
Perhaps 63 teams are down from the previous 85 teams. Maybe they'll come to their senses just before the 2035 tax season, when all tax returns will be automatically filled out by the IRS and they'll send you a memo. Then, they'll just withdraw the tax due from your electronic wallet. Poof! No more tax returns, no more Lacerte! I'll be in 6th grade in my next lifetime when that happens. You might as well bay at the moon than to expect Lacerte to suddenly become excellent and responsive.
No, this is an example of "let's create a feedback poll so our customers think we are listening to them," when in fact they're note.
I've been a Lacerte customer since 1992 and ever since Intuit bought the company, its product development has ground to a complete halt. The last major piece of development came when Lacerte introduced mult-state tax reporting -- maybe 20 years ago.
"No, this is an example of "let's create a feedback poll so our customers think we are listening to them," when in fact they're not"
Bingo! For those that have been around long enough we know they have a wishing well to make you feel good, but if you check out the plumbing, you can see that all of the wishes get carried off to the sewage treatment plant.
Last time i asked a few year ago, tech support told me there were about 45,000 firms using Lacerte. It's possibly down a little now, since Drake has taken some more of the market share. Let's say it's 40,000 firms, or at least 100,000 preparers. Of those, at this writing, less than 250 have joined this discussion about fillable PDF organizers.
What does that say about the remaining 99,750 others who are blasie about this basic issue? Lacerte can easily afford to lose all 250 of us, and it wouldn't matter to them an iota. They can raise their fees $1.00 per preparer and more than make up for the revenue loss. Indeed, maybe they would be glad to get rid of all of us trouble-makers in favor of appeasing the complacent and indifferent remainder with their continued baloney.
As long as the other major competitors do not have fillable PDFs, there's no competitive disadvantage within our profession. However, it's not the point. The competition is outside the bubble of tax preparation community. They have set the public's expectations, not the tax community. It's the rest of the world which has made us look like backwards fools.
(1) We get so many calls for the few we send regarding E-Organizer related issues - if they are on a Mac, question if they were sent, issues opening, etc.
(2) They are more difficult to work with than the regular Organizer when using them for workpaper documentation.
I agree that Lacerte e-organizers did not work for me so I had been sending clients a copy of the paper organizer in pdf format as well as an Intuit Link. They hate that if they answer a questioin, they have problems going back to change their answer. A pdf copy of the paper organizer would be the best solution. Also I hate the Intuit Link's question and answers since I have to use the Snip it took to print and then scan in pdf the answers. I am thinking of removing the questions and downloading in the Intuit Link the pdf copy of the organizer as well as emailing it password protected to my clients to tell me if there are any yes answers. This is one of the reasons, I was ready to try other tax return providers this year.
on 11-18-202103:13 PM - last edited on 12-19-202309:44 PM by IntuitGabi
on 11-18-202103:13 PM - last edited on 12-19-202309:44 PM by IntuitGabi
As one of the creators of the utility that I have previously linked to--and thanks for the shouts out from the other posters who *ALSO* posted a link!--I wanted to give everyone here notice that the 2021 version is updated and ready: [removed]
There is also a discount code (20% off) for readers of this thread: PDF_Fill_I
(The middle part is the word "Fill", the final part is the capital letter "eye", as in "Intuit community page"; the separators are "_"/underscore.)
Note again that this simply lays fillable fields over the PDF pages generated from Lacerte (with the "complete" organizer only). Primarily this is useful for legibility--rather than reading each client's different chicken-scratch handwriting--as well as Find, Zooming size, and copy/paste for long entries. This WILL NOT take data from the Organizer and populate it into the Lacerte program. (We have made some small inroads on that, but it is... daunting.)
And again, this works ONLY for the INDividual module. (The page headers for the FIDuciary module are laid out differently, so they will take additional work... and no other module even generates an Organizer.)
Because I hunted down somebody who is a wizard with Adobe PDFs, and he beat the organizers into submission for me.
Backstory: We started emailing out PDFs--fundamentally duplicating the IRS' behavior "turn tax preparers into their data entry folks", and instead "shifting our printing costs to clients if they want to print the organizer"--in January of 2011 from the TY2010 software. Naturally, many clients asked, "why can't we just type into it?" I explained that the multi-billion-dollar company Intuit did not make that possible with the PDF organizers that they generated. Fast forward to when, in calendar 2018, I was given a reference to David's company (that is his site to which I posted the link) and he collaborated with me to take source pages that have fields on them, recognize the text of the page-header at the top (year, fed/state, page to use) and lay the relevant fields out onto them. So for the 2018, 2019, 2020, and now 2021 tax years, we have had fillable PDFs to send to clients.
If you--or any user here--would like a sample copy of our 2020 blank organizer, please feel free to write me at "[email address removed] ". (Paradox is the database program that I did many years of manipulation of Lacerte information via, and so hence also my handle here: DatabaseRobert. Yes, I can consult about ODBC connections/direct manipulation of Lacerte data tables & detail files, if anyone is interested in that, either.)
The 2021 is still getting the intro pages re-written, so not yet ready for prime time. We typically send them all out in mid-January, after Congress is (largely) finished re-writing tax law.
And no-one should feel too badly about me flacking an advert here, either: I have sent (blank) sample copies of our finished product to "all of the programmers' email addresses that I have for Lacerte/Intuit" on a regular basis, so there's a good dozen of them that know that it *can* be done.
I will say in their defense that it is not an easy task. They start with fields on the page (where they put the prior year information). Then they turn all of the pages into "no fields". There may or may not be field code numbers (because when we generate Organizers, we can choose not to show them). Then there need to be fields laid on for the client to use. How about that "grid of columns" on page 11/12 Int/Div, or page17/22 asset sales? Or--true client of ours--the guy with 40+ rental properties, so "page18/1 #1", "page18/2 #1", "page18/1 #2", "page18/2 #2", ... "page18/47 #1", "page18/47 #2"...
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Unfortunately, no: Adobe Acrobat full version (I think "DC", with no numbering any more, is the most up-to-date). He works only with that base program, not any of the third-party software that also deal with PDFs. Since a single-user license is about a hundred bucks even if you do NO price shopping, we did not feel that it was anything too onerous for an accounting firm. And only one license for Adobe is needed: there is the ability to set up an "Action" in Adobe, point to some number of files/an entire folder, and say "process them all." For handy reference, we include the file needed to do that in the ZIP with the pages of fields. Between 11:36am and 6:07pm one day this past January, my machine churned its way through 566 (of our 2,554 total) INDividual Organizers All told I was done with all of them between January 26th through the 30th. (Later than usual this year, because the front pages were--still!--being re-written.)
I'm very interested. Q - How does this work if one customizes the questions? And, can the proformaed information be adjusted? More specifically - update address (ok) or PY information (not ok).
on 11-19-202109:23 AM - last edited on 12-19-202309:45 PM by IntuitGabi
on 11-19-202109:23 AM - last edited on 12-19-202309:45 PM by IntuitGabi
Unfortunately, ALL of the questionnaire pages have the same title bar at the top of the sheet, so there is no way for this utility to recognize "this is page1 of questions" or "this is page 6 of questions". What we do here is generate the questionnaire as an original PDF out of Lacerte, keep it as a completely separate document that we then lay all of the fields out appropriately, and then put it together with the window envelope slip sheet, cover & engagement letters, and the rest of "all that stuff up front" before the actual tax data. The same command also assigns our master-password (the same for ALL files, so that any staffer can open any file that we generate without having to know any client info) as well as the user-password (they have "open", "fill-in", and "print" privileges, so they can admire it on screen or admire it on paper, but make no other changes to the document). That stand-alone utility is "PDFtk" (PDF ToolKit), a free command-line tool that I use for a TON of things. [removed]
I realize, though, that not everyone is as comfortable as I am with things like that, so there is a "skip <some # of> pages" setting in the JavaScript, in order to "hop over" all of the leading pages. Since the slip sheets, cover & engagement letters, and so on, typically do not even HAVE any fields to complete... if you use five sheets, tell the utility to "skip the first 5 sheets" of all organizers. That should all be described in text when you download.
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The data generated by Lacerte--all of the prior year information--sits on the page. It is left-aligned, and printed in black. (See on your own organizers.) Our fields are all RIGHT-aligned, and in blue.
Any of the pre-printed information CANNOT be changed, nor would you want it to be (as you correctly supposed). If there is NO change to the information, client does nothing. If there is a change (new phone, new email, different street address, added child, whatever) they just type in the relevant field. Even if the length of pre-print (coming from the left) overlaps with a very long new input (coming from the right), the black/blue different will make it obvious. Also, the preparer can just click on the field to copy the value as typed by the client.
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And it looks like this board redacts out email addresses if you post, so no-one saw my direct contact offer the other day. If you prefer to reach out to me, I am at "ParadoxForLacerte" (Paradox is the database program that I used to thrash Lacerte's data into obedience). The domain is "at Yahoo.com".
Also, please integrate the pdf fillable organizer with Intuit Link; my clients like Intuit Link but think it is a substitute for the organizer and try to input info under the Q & A section, and there is no prior year #s to refer to. So in intuit link shere it asks for the Sch C info, why not link to the organizer?
So Lacerte, you didn’t implement this, boo. Here’s another suggestion since we are still stuck with paper organizers. How about removing clients birthdates from printing like you do with socials, that way when it gets lost in the mail the bad guys don’t have their birthdates.
Couldn't agree more. The E-organizer is terrible. Please make the PDF a fillable form BUT PLEASE STILL MAKE IT CUSTOMIZABLE. There are many questions I add to your questionnaire along with a signature line. I even re-word questions because I've had to many clients misunderstand the questions.
I found a work around, although takes an additional step and more time.
I print the organizer to PDF and save it. Open the organizer in Kofax Advanced (similar to Adobe Acrobat) . convert the file to a fillable PDF, save it, then email it to the clients.
much easier doing all this through SmartVault. But again, there's the added cost of the PDF conversion software, SmartVault, and the time to manipulate the files.
This is a solution INTUIT / Lacerte should have available for us. Ever since INTUIT bought them, Lacerte has become stagnant.
Totally agree Susan. Then if they develop the new program and it doesn't take off, they add it to the tax software package and increase the fee for everyone.
Hence intuit link, e organizers, planning software etc.
@smartcpa, does the Kofax Advanced software have the ability to process files/do things either a) automatically such as the Debenu software--purchased by FoxIt, as I recall, and now getting ready to be sunsetted--while looking at a set of folders, OR b) from the command line, such as "run the program by opening that file with these parameters" (such as "make fillable fields everywhere")? So that you could do all files in a list sequentially, for example.
Either one would get you out of the business of "find the PDF in a client folder, open it, do something with it, re-save"...
@SusanLDiscountCPA, last spring already I discussed with David (who runs the PDFAutomationStation site that the utility is sold on) the--most likely "pretty remote"--possibility of being approached by Intuit for some kind of licensing agreement. Neither one of us has *ANY* objection to having a multi-billion-dollar company inflict payment upon us for something like this that works. We aren't even really hung up on "one time transfer of IP" versus "yearly" like we do it now.
Whether they would go for it? <shrug> Who can say....
@DatabaseRobert, I really feel it would be in Lacerte's best interest to have them buy the license from you to incorporate pdf tax organizing or making some arrangement with you each year.
A quick update for anyone who HAS bought the utility from PDFAutomationStation: - for the "generic" page2/Dependents, the client/spouse selector field is reversed with the IDPIN field. (All of the state-specific pages 2, I managed to get correct. Just not the "US" (only) page.)
and
- for page24/Adjustments, the lowest section of the page--Alimony--has the fields mis-aligned. In the program, the "date of divorce/separation" is further down in the list of fields; in the Organizer, it was made the FIRST field in that section. So what you see is all of the other 4 fields, one line higher than they should be. ($ amount is on the SSN line; SSN is on Last Name; Last is on First; First is showing on Date of.) I just flat-out missed the addition of one more line.
I have forwarded the corrected/updated sheets to PDFAutomationStation, and he is working on replacing them in the ZIP file of forms.
I never said SmarVault converted the file to a fillable PDF.
I print to SmartVault, then use KOFAX to open, convert the file and save it back to the client's vault. KOFAX converts the PDF to fillable. Using SmartVault streamlines the process of emailing securely to the client and allows us to gather client documents at the same time.
Agree and each year I receive more and more of requests as this form clients - agree - current electronic version of Lacerte is nothing like printed one, and clients cannot handle current version.
I agree. Some of my clients use Mac computers and can’t use the e-organizer. Also, most clients prefer the fillable pdf rather thank the printed one. Time to modernize.
I agree the e-organizer is being blocked by anti virus software and is not available to mac users. This would help so much with all of our clients. We could save on mailing and it taking so long for the mail to be delivered.
I printed out the organizers to PDF out of Lacerte (directly to SmartVault - so they went to each client's folder).
I then opened the PDF and made it fillable, saved it back to the client folder in the portal. Clients can now fill in the organizer and upload it back to us.
You (not the client) would need to have Adobe Acrobat Pro or Kofax Power PDF to make the PDF document fillable. Your only cost is purchasing the PDF software, and then you own it.
I think this is a wonderful idea. I am also getting clients asking me for the same thing. I really hope Lacerte can make this happen for the 2022 tax season.
Unfortunately, I am unable to use tax services with A&A this year for the 2021 tax period. The portal has been difficult to use/download from in my experience for this year that does not justify the expense as the forms were not in a fillable format requiring the addition of a massive amount of text boxes within PDFs to input information - I gave up after multiple attempts/sessions. Though I hope to work with you again, I am filing independently this year as the workload is quite similar.
I would strongly recommend fillable PDFs for your clients as this would rapidly improve experience/usability and hope we can work together in the future as I have loved working with you in previous years.
Have a lovely day and I hope all is well for you and yours.
--
Best Regards,
This is the first client that we've lost due to non-fillable organizers, but far from the only complaint we've received. This should be pas the status of interested and reviewing it.
on 12-13-202203:10 PM - last edited on 12-19-202309:48 PM by IntuitGabi
on 12-13-202203:10 PM - last edited on 12-19-202309:48 PM by IntuitGabi
(Fundamentally a repeat of my post of last year, now that the new version of the Organizer tool is ready.)
[NOTE: THIS POST IS A COMMERCIAL.]
[removed]
Note again that this simply lays fillable fields over the PDF pages generated from Lacerte (with the "complete" organizer only). Primarily this is useful for legibility--rather than reading each client's different chicken-scratch handwriting--as well as Find, Zooming size, and copy/paste for long entries. This WILL NOT take data from the Organizer and populate it into the Lacerte program. (We have made some small inroads on that, but it is... daunting.)
And again, this works ONLY for the INDividual module. (The page headers for the FIDuciary module are laid out differently, so they will take additional work... and no other module even generates an Organizer.)
Remember to print your Organizers by checking the "PDF" box in the Lacerte dialog (this uses their built-in PDF creation driver), NOT by "changing the printer" to be your Adobe product. The latter creates pages that do NOT look like Organizers. [See image, at bottom.]
So Lacerte, I posted this query on Feb. 2, 2021, going on two years now and no response other than a STATUS UPDATE (with no date attached) that says you have passed this on to your development team who are "interested."
So how about giving some feedback to the 376 of us who so far have seen this and like this idea?
"So Lacerte, I posted this query on Feb. 2, 2021, going on two years now and no response"
Two years is a literal drop in the bucket of "ongoing requests" for Lacerte. I have printouts from the Ctrl+L(email module within the Lacerte program) from the first half-dozen years of the new millenium (when there was still a Ctrl+L[email module within the Lacerte program]) of, literally, copy/pasting the EXACT SAME MESSAGE complaining about the EXACT SAME THING, and quoting the service ticket reference of the preceding year.
I got so tired of the canned response that, "while they value customer suggestions, it was too late in the development cycle to make any changes for that year's program," that I was saying, "Great, put this in the queue for NEXT year."
And after a couple of years of hearing THE SAME **bleep** RESPONSE, I started saying, "Great, put me in the queue for TWO years out. You know what, go FIVE years out."
Guess what? Most of those things I was griping about, in the early 2000's... remain uncorrected.
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Yeah, "two years" is NOTHING for the Lacerte Development Complaint Cycle.
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One of the other members of the old Yahoo!Group for LTUG ("Lacerte Tax User Group") had a VBA script that let him read & output the binary data files for the Lacerte programs. I got my hands on that in 2008 (for TY2007), and started extracting all of the detail. (page10/wages, here are the entries, whether or not it is spouse, and so on) The Tax Summary tells you, "Wages, 150k"... but not WHO is earning the wages, nor whether or not they're in an employer plan, nor what the split is Client/Spouse, nor... Seeing the data allowed for that.
That was in calendar 2008, looking at TY2007 data.
Calendar 2018, I was reached out to by some of the developers at Lacerte who were putting together the ODBC connection, and got *AUTHORIZED* access to the tax detail. (Which was necessary, because the hacking utility was invalidated by the updated encryption that Lacerte put on their files for TY2015.)
Ten years. And I had been *asking* for the capability LONG before--think "starting in the 1990s"--I got access to it with Dennis' utility in 2008.
Two years is nothing.
Robert
P.S. More may have *SEEN* it; 376 is simply the number of people who chose to VOTE for it.
This is my 4th year with Lacerte and the fillable organizer request has been around since before that. Intuit is obviously not interested in it . Going to look into the solutions others have found.
What's it going to take for some of us to realize that Lacerte is, and never has been, a forward leaning company. Always lagging behind the innovation curve for the 40 years i've been using the program. I believe it's a reflection on the mentality of the majority of the users, who are change-adverse, many of whom never customize the program to even include their client's name on the cover letter or instructions, leaving the default, "Dear Client." What do you expect from Lacerte when most of its customers are Neanderthals? Lacerte has never been a company that espouses excellence. They have always pandered to the most common majority of its users, thankfully, many of whom have defected to the market leading lowest priced sub-standard alternative, Drake. Those of us who hopelessly expect excellence from Lacerte are stuck with the mediocre result of Lacerte's policy to avoid "rocking the boat" with improvements that usually elicit howls of complaints from the common practitioners, so they just avoid the trouble by appeasing us minority users with meaningless "updates." Face it. It's just not going to happen. And, the workaround program offered by a vendor is complicated to use. Just have a look at the user video and you'll come away dismayed at how long it takes for just one client's organizer to be converted. I think we're stuck for quite a while with the status quo.
"What's it going to take for some of us to realize that Lacerte is, and never has been, a forward leaning company. Always lagging behind the innovation curve for the 40 years i've been using the program."
I agree with this. But I don't think you need to insult the users of Lacerte software.
It looks like the post that you replied to is from a couple of years ago, on page 2 of this topic thread. [links are removed]
If you look on page 12 (the next-to-last page, currently) you will see the link--& the coupon code for 20% discount--to the current version, Tax Year 2022 organizers, for getting fields laid over their pages.
I agree with this, This was my first year sending organizers out (as someone else had done it prior to me) and I ended up having to save each PDF file and emailing over 300 clients their organizers! When if there was a way to send the PDF version to all of them thru Lacerte it would have saved a TON of time! The .EXE files my clients can't open. Please work on this for next tax season, we spend so much money on this program to have to still do so much leg work.
An inexpensive program like Drake offers a seamless process for fillable organizers and, of course most clients want this. Why is Lacerte not leading the pack on this?
1. It's inferior to Lacerte in almost every way except price.
2. We don't know, but i suspect, that Drake's organizer is NOT as comprehensive as Lacerte's.
3. If Drake's organizer is less robust than Lacerte, i would expect it's easier to convert it to a fillable PDF.
4. There's no excuse for Lacerte's decades old refusal to solve this problem regardless of effort required. It's been too long in the queue for an enhancement.
5. One possible benefit of paper organizers is that clients can write notes in the margins to clarify things or add commentary. Perhaps Lacerte can include some provision for this if they ever release a PDF organizer.
So I purchased the software from a user here @DatabaseRobert . If you search for his name you can find the website where to download it. I paid $100 after discount. As a heads up, the instructions were confusing and I consider myself to be tech savvy. Once I figured it out, it worked nicely for me. It's basically a plug in for Adobe Acrobat. I just ran all my organizers through the software and made them fillable. The fields lined up nicely.
Thumbs up to @DatabaseRobert for providing this option. Totally worth it for the price!
And a big thumbs down to Lacerte for not including this feature in their software after so many years. If a 3rd party vendor can do it, then Lacerte should be able to do it too.
I agree 100%! So much is done paperless and a simple fillable PDF is needed for practitioners to easily stay current with today's paperless business world. The current electronic organizer, gets blocked by security software systems, so this is NOT useful at all. I find the Link option time consuming and difficult to navigate. PLEASE make a fillable PDF organizer an option for 2023. It seems easy to do. I am surprised this hasn't been included in the program yet, especially with the massive number in support of this. It makes me a little disappointed in Lacerte.
So I plan to write an email (and maybe a letter in the mail) to the CEO of Intuit about this. Someone "in the know" said that this may be the way to get action, so, eh, worth a try.
Sasan K. Goodarzi is his name. If anyone has the email or address let us know.
At its heart, the instructions--which can be a bit overwhelming--boil down to: 1) do the download; 2) be OUT of Adobe Acrobat; 3) put the JavaScript where it belongs; 4) store the Directory Setter where you have the forms; 5) Load up the Directory Setter and make sure it says "where you have the forms". Then open an Organizer and run the command. (I added the menu command to my toolbar, so I can reach it either way.)
If you have an entire bunch (or even whole directory) to do, you can set up one of Adobe's mass-handling "Actions" to run.
My fear is that Intuit will choose to incorporate this function into one of their "integrations" - aka expensive add-on module- rather than providing it with the base program.
I tried to send myself the E-organizer today and it didn't work for me. That was after chasing my tail to get my one and only Link client the questionnaire over the past two days.
The other issue I've given up on is my decades long quest for Intuit to come up with a way to sync the Appointment Manager with Google calendar so I don't have to spend a couple days manually syncing them so the organizer prints the pre-scheduled appointment I have on the calendar I use in real life. I don't think the Appt Mgr has been truly supported for sometime now.
My immediate thought for the appointment dates was "aren't there data fields for that, which could be completed with an ODBC connection?" And there are two columns (one each for date & time) in the Data-6 table which could be connected to.
However, I could not find a way to actually get anything to POPULATE those fields. It does not appear to be the fields called "2022 tax return appointment" on page 5.1/Invoice Letter Instructions.
I am inquiring of "my guy", who was part of the group setting up the ODBC capability at Lacerte, to see what I am missing in working towards this.
Question on the Google Calendar side of this: do you have the Lacerte client # recorded anywhere in those appointments?
@DatabaseRobert There's a section in the instruction video about processing Tax Forms that confused me. Tax Forms are already processed and come with the purchase of the license. I think most people who will buy the license are interested in processing tax organizers not the individual tax forms. I ended up processing the included tax forms first, before I realized that was an unnecessary step.
After figuring this part out, the plug in worked great. I absolutely recommend it to anyone here looking to make fillable organizers. I already received a few completed orgazniers back from clients and I love it!
David & I have already talked about removing that portion of the script, or else making it tagged to "only our licenses" or some such, because yes, all of that has already been done with the pages that are provided.
@DatabaseRobert Regarding your question about my appointments in Google calendar, no I don't use the client number in the appointments in Google. Although if that could make this happen, I would have my office manager do that.
When Intuit came out with the Practice Management add-on module I gave up hope that there would be any further work on the Appointment Manager, which I use to create recurring appointments within the organizers to mirror those in Google which I live by during tax season. Apparently Practice Management syncs with Google calendar, but last time I checked it wasn't a cost effective addition for the once a year hassle. And I don't know if it interacts with the organizer function.
Robert - I ran through the program for the first time this year. The instructions do need a complete revamp. There were a number of steps that were not explained and I had to get David's help on several occasions.
On a separate note, I have reached out the the Intuit Office of the President to highlight the need for fillable organizers and have linked them to this thread.
@pamdory I'm going to take a stab at interpreting what you have set up; please correct me where I come adrift.
- Intuit's "Practice Management" module does sync with Google calendar, but the older Appointment Manager does *NOT*. (??) - In Lacerte, you use the "Appointment Manager" and set up repeating appointments for each year, and they carry forward for you to see. - It sounds as though you are *creating* the appointments in Google calendar, and then pulling them in to the Appointment Manager by hand? (In order to get them to print on the Organizer.)
When you create the appointment in the Google calendar, where does the client's information come from? Do you have that info stored in Google somewhere (as a Contact [as they are called in Outlook], or something similar), that it pulls from? If you type anything in by hand, you could include the Lacerte client # as just one more thing being typed.
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Sadly, the approach that I was taking does not appear to do what I wanted: I put in date & time on page5/Invoice Letter Filing Instructions, but that did NOT print on the page1/client info sheet of the Organizer.
Does it have to be input in the Appointment Manager, in order to print on the Organizer?
You're pretty close, the process started with the Appt. Mgr. back in 2003 before I used Google calendar, but used - wait for it - a Palm. The appointments were initially entered as recurring appointments so Joe Smith is always scheduled for 10:00 on the first Wednesday of February, for instance.
The Appt. Mgr. does not sync with Google that I have been able to find
I converted from Palm to Google ten years ago and had an employee enter all of the appointments manually from the Appt. Mgr. using just the name and phone #.
Each year I compare the two calendars adjusting for new/dropped clients and reschedules from the prior year. Since both calendars have the recurring function, the majority of appointments roll along with out issue.
The Appt Mgr then prints the appointment on the Client Information page, although I don't see that we have access to the formatting of that page.
It's not a massive issue, but has been my request since the Palm Pilot days and I thought surely Intuit would think it was a good idea to offer a dynamic sync with the larger calendar platforms like Google. They did allow an import or export with Outlook, but nothing dynamic to work with the Appt. Mgr. I should probably revisit the Practice Mgmt app, but now I'm cranky about it.
Thanks for the run-down, Pam! You're speaking to someone who still has a Treo smartphone (no data plan... just a working Palm OS 4 device) plugged in keeping charge, because my Tungsten finally died. (I would carry the Tungsten with me on the trail hiking, because the form factor was "flat rectangle" rather than "antenna sticking out to get broken". Water purification timer, alarm in the morning to get up, dinner is done cooking, make a note of odd/funny occurrence, whatever.)
And I used "DateBk6" for my personal organizer (calendar & contacts), which was a phenomenal upgrade from the Palm's built in DateBook app. Check out Pimlico Software.
Fortunately, they came out with an Android version(-ish) of the same software, called PimliCal. Extremely worthy of investigation.
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Lacerte's Appointment Manager always had their own data table; in "the old days" I could open that right up and view it, but WRITING to it would for some reason corrupt the table. We never stored appointments in Lacerte anyhow, so this was merely something that I ran across and was noodling with to see if I could get anything good to happen. (Like for example, a printout that was NOT a functionally useless mess of "all lines the same size, nothing bolded, and no indenting" [such as "days in all caps & bold & larger, indent appointments, with the client name/number in bold"].) Yeah, completely UN-impressed with Lacerte's default printout.
Now, with their redesigned data tables, I cannot even open the Appointment Manager's data table. (It got a new name, as well.) And since it is stored in a completely different directory (specifically, your "OPTIONS" location) than client data, no ODBC connection to help there.
@DatabaseRobert Thanks for the background and the always appreciated TL;DR. I figured the advent of Practice Management was the demise of innovation to the Appointment Mgr.
It's always fun to reflect on our prior tech devices. I remember commenting to my former business partner about how nice it would be if a single device could replace my cell phone, Palm and iPod. As I often say, "It's a wonderful time to be alive."
Well...in some respects. In other respects it would be nice to go back to living in spots like Mayberry.
Mayberry, indeed. How nice that would be. No purple hair and no metal radar antennas on people's body parts, no question what gender you are and no worry about saying the wrong pronoun. Then there's the tech world, where everything is broken always to some degree. Nothing works right anymore. I wonder if we're ever get sensible again. PDF organizers. Now there's an idea, but don't hold your breath. Intuit: the place where good ideas and innovation go to die.
Thank you for your feedback and votes. We understand this is an opportunity not only for Lacerte but for many accountants using Intuit products. This idea continues to be Under Review as the team is researching options for a holistic approach on this topic.
Please continue to share your feedback as we develop and scope next steps for bringing this enhancement to life.
Interestingly enough, I recently had some conversations with David about how we could move forward with taking "what is typed into the PDF fields" and bridging that over into the Lacerte program as actual inputs of tax detail.
Offhand, it looks pretty promising and like a fun little "over the summer project" to work on, maybe to have as an adjunct product in time for Tax Year 2023.
Just to gauge interest level: how many people might be inclined to use something like that? (It would *require* the use of our little utility to add the fields, since that incorporates the field names that we would be using to make the data line up.)
Having this isn’t just something to noodle over. This is a necessity!! GIT-R-DONE!! And for what we are paying already it should be included for no additional fees.
We have been asking for an organizer that the client can input into for years. Now you claim (as progress) that you are looking for a way to take that idea, and rather than implement it, you are going to see how you can make it more complicated than we are asking for, and to charge us extra. Just give us the organizer that a client can input data into and return the data to us.
I posted this suggestion OVER TWO YEARS AGO. I don't even care if the data can be directly upload from a fillable PDF organizer to the Lacerte program, I am interested in giving my client an updated method to send me data rather than using an outdated PAPER organizer. Paper organizers are a wasteful use of paper and antiquated. Our fees to you go up every year, for what we pay, this should be an included option and not an extra add on.
Recent respondents, please note that there is a huge difference between "IntuitGabiU" (a staffer there at the company) and "me" (a user of Lacerte, who happens to have fillable PDF organizers because I paid a Wizard with Acrobat to MAKE it for me... and then we are selling that capability).
Having been involved in that process, trust me when I say that what is involved with making a fillable PDF out of the Organizer is not a trivial task.
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Then, separately from Gabi's comment, I posted that I have a good line on being able to move that filled-in information over into the tax program for the next year. For that, I was attempting to gauge interest.
"Using the government form info" is the most common feedback that I've seen, including on the "LTUG<at>groups.io" discussion group which replaced the original on Yahoo!Groups.
Again, this is fairly straightforward--pages 10, 11, 12, 13, 20.X, 14.1 for SSA... what else?--to set up certain pages to either skip always, ask the user for "all in this client", or ask the user "one at a time"... ...and then "everything else" like page 17/22 adds & sells, entries on 16/18/19 C/E/F, page30/employee expenses, 33/child care, 38/foreign, and so on, everything just flows through.
Since the client's original info in the Organizer would still be there in the Organizer for the Preparer's reference, I don't see any real loss by NOT setting up lines of data to carry over.
I print the organizer to PDF. then open the PDF and use my PDF software to convert the document to a fillable forms document. (I use Kofax Power PDF Advanced 4.0 - search it on Amazon). The document is saved to our portal, and the client retrieves it from there.
No, it doesn't import into Lacerte, but it is a fillable PDF, and I can READ what the client writes.
Can Intuit build this into their software? Yes. Will they? Most likely NOT! (Unless they can figure out how to make it subscription based and charge you an exorbitant annual fee.)
David & I are working on the TY2023 version of our utility. The updated forms appear to be ready to go, even though the menu option (to actually PRINT them) is not yet enabled. If none of the pages change between now and when printing goes live, then we will be ready with a quick turnaround.
Intuit link is good for those clients that have a degree in computer science. It does however brand Intuit all over your client correspondence. As they are actively marketing Turbo Tax live tax services to clients, this branding is conflict of interest and they surely know it. The software is decades old but it would be VERY easy for them to at least generate a report showing all documents from the prior year used for returns. While not a full organizer, it would be very helpful for existing clients. For new clients, there are many options for fillable organizers both electronic and pdf, just not from Intuit.
on 11-07-202309:56 AM - last edited on 12-19-202309:54 PM by IntuitGabi
on 11-07-202309:56 AM - last edited on 12-19-202309:54 PM by IntuitGabi
(NOTE THAT THIS POST IS A COMMERCIAL!)
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David has done a good bit of updating for the instructions and interaction with Adobe so that it less arcane. We retained the "Action" capability so you can point it at a folder-full of files and have it process a bunch sequentially.
Note again that this simply lays fillable fields over the PDF pages generated from Lacerte (with the "complete" organizer only). Primarily this is useful for legibility--rather than reading each client's different chicken-scratch handwriting--as well as Find, Zooming size, and copy/paste for long entries. This WILL NOT take data from the Organizer and populate it into the Lacerte program. (We have made some small inroads on that, but it is... daunting.)
And again, this works ONLY for the INDividual module. (The page headers for the FIDuciary module are laid out differently, so they will take additional work... and no other module even generates an Organizer.)
David has told me that several people have given him feedback about difficulty with the discount codes. To simplify things, he has also created "iTax2023" (four letters, only the 'T' is capitalized, four digits) for use by readers here.
In addition, if you tried using the previous code and were unable to get it to work, please reach him at "email <at> PDFautomationstation.com" and he will refund you the 20% discount.
Hey Intuit, are you there? I posted this request in Feb. 2021, we are going on THREE years now that it's been "under review." For what we pay for your product I expected more than "under review" for three years. Are you going to implement this? If not, we can all move on from it in one way or another.
I have used the e-organizer for years but this year about half of my clients did not receive them so I sent them again. They still did not receive them
Their appointments were included with them so that was also a problem.
